Proactive Aging with Pathstones by Phoebe

In this episode of Caring Table Podcast, I'm joined by Kama Mengel and Lisa Hoffman from Pathstones by Phoebe for an honest, informative conversation about proactive aging and long-term planning.

Together, we explore why so many families are forced into crisis decisions, how planning early creates more choices, and why aging “reactively” often leads to outcomes seniors never wanted. Kama and Lisa explain how Pathstones by Phoebe helps individuals age in place, navigate complex care systems, and maintain independence, while also giving families peace of mind.

This episode dives into real-life scenarios around caregiving, aging in place, long-term care planning, documentation, and advocacy. Whether you’re planning for yourself, supporting aging parents, or simply want to understand what options exist, this conversation offers clarity, compassion, and practical guidance.

If you believe aging should be planned your way, this episode is a must-listen.

Topics Covered

• Proactive vs. reactive aging and why it matters
• Why most seniors end up in crisis care situations
• Aging in place: what it really takes to stay at home
• When the best time to start planning actually is
• The role of care coordinators and advocacy
• How Pathstones by Phoebe supports members for life
• Planning without burdening adult children
• The importance of documentation, advance directives, and powers of attorney
• Navigating long-term care, insurance gaps, and system complexity
• Creating peace of mind for both seniors and families

Interested in learning more? Contact Lisa and Kama directly!

Lisa Hoffman, MBA
Executive Director

P: 610-794-6701
 lhoffman@phoebe.org

www.PathstonesByPhoebe.org           

Kama Mengel 
Outreach Specialist, Pathstones by Phoebe  

 P: 610-794-6703
 kmengel@phoebe.org

www.PathstonesByPhoebe.org

Episode Sponsored by:

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Our Mission encourages vibrant, healthy, and productive living through stories about people we meet and serve.

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Transcript

00:00:01:15 - 00:00:30:22

Welcome to Caring Table. I am Dianne Frana, your host. Having real conversations about real topics shaping lives in the Lehigh Valley and beyond. Welcome to the second episode. Today we're going to talk about being proactive, not reactive, and planning your future. Today our guest is Kama and Lisa from Pathstones by Phoebe. I would like them to introduce themselves and I thank them for coming.

00:00:31:00 - 00:00:51:20

Hi, Dianne. I've known you for a while for my past. I've been with Parsons only since the end of September. It was something that when I met with Lisa and I, just. The aging in place, the idea of making a plan aligns with my goals. And so I, Part of the team, and I am the outreach specialist.

00:00:51:23 - 00:01:11:13

My name is Lisa. I am the executive director of Pass Jones by Phoebe. I've been in this role for about six and a half years. I've been in senior living for close to 25 years. Before that, I was in insurance. And so in my career of senior living, I've worked in all different aspects. I worked in the financial aspect.

00:01:11:15 - 00:01:35:20

I've worked in business office and billing. I have worked for the association and toured the state of Pennsylvania, visiting over 100 retirement communities. And I had the opportunity to come back to pass Jones to Phoebe organization while Phoebe's been around for over 120 years. The Parsons program is just celebrating ten years, and what I truly believe about this is it's an innovative program.

00:01:36:02 - 00:01:53:13

Phoebe understood that people want to age in place where we primarily have some large nursing home facilities. What we know is that people don't want to be in a nursing home. So why is it that they're in a nursing home? The majority of times it's because they haven't have a plan. You know, they didn't plan that their home was accessible.

00:01:53:13 - 00:02:22:09

Only about 10% of homes are prepared for people to age in place when they didn't prepare financially, and that they didn't have the resources to go somewhere. That that gave them the opportunity to choose how they would like to live. We are here in Pennsylvania and in Pennsylvania. If you go to a memory care facility or an assisted living facility and you don't have the funds to pay here, only option then is to go to a nursing home that takes Medicaid.

00:02:22:09 - 00:02:44:21

So for me, it's this idea of if people make a plan and they follow that plan, their outcomes are going to be better and they're going to have some say in how they age, which is truly what people want. They want to be able to age their way in the home they love, wherever that home may be. With that in mind, and knowing that when is the best time that they start planning, when do you start talking about it?

00:02:44:22 - 00:03:16:19

Do you start before you start? You know, you reach your 60s. It's important to know when do they need to be planning? Then also we have people out there our age that are looking for their parents who did not plan. So where do we begin? I think it's important to start planning, even when you're in your career, in your 40s and 50s, and when as you get through your children maybe going out of college, it's really time to start thinking about what your future looks like and starting to prepare financially in investing and saving.

00:03:16:19 - 00:03:36:23

And then as you get to a point where you're deciding, do I want to stay in this home or do I want to move? What options do I want and what things do I need to do? So what we see the ideal time to join our program. Average age is around 7475. You must not be in need of care or you're not eligible for our program.

00:03:36:23 - 00:03:54:11

So while you're still healthy and active and independent, very much like a long term care insurance policy, where it's we're going to look at your medical records, see if you're in good health, if you've waited until now, you have a serious health issue. You're not going to qualify for a plan that's going to help you age as well as pay for those expenses.

00:03:54:15 - 00:04:12:12

And we're seeing younger people taking a look at what are their choices. And that's what you really need to start doing is what choices align with what you want to do. And we do have some people that have been reaching out to us that are young, in their early 50s, early 60s, and they're just what is out there.

00:04:12:13 - 00:04:32:14

Like, how do you know what's out there if you don't start to look? So do you think the ones that are in their early 50s, early 60s, do you think they're looking now because they are in the place where they're making the decisions for their parents, and the decisions haven't been made? I mean, we're living longer, right? I think a lot of times that is that's where they are.

00:04:32:14 - 00:04:52:06

They have a they have a peer that's in that situation and they're like, what is out there? What are our choices? I mean, we make a lot of choices in our life and we start looking into them. But as we age, it's if we don't have a plan in place, that's when people are faced with hard decisions and then the family needs to step in.

00:04:52:06 - 00:05:23:20

And sometimes families or whoever you have is your power of attorney, don't really know what your wishes are. So how do you start that conversation and where would they start? So who do they go to? Do they start with an estate attorney? Do they? There's a state attorney. It's a very strong system. So a financial planner and a state attorney again, doing some exploration of understanding of what you would think you want to be and what the cost of that is and how that works, you know, where do you want to live?

00:05:23:20 - 00:05:42:13

You know, what is a continuing care retirement community? You know, what state do I want to live in? Do I want to stay at home? I think it's it's really a lot of exploration and really we tell people, if you would like to live in a retirement community, then go look at retirement communities and start to understand the differences and the contracts that they offer.

00:05:42:16 - 00:06:06:15

Know how that works at what age you should be moving in. Bottom line, a lot of it really does come back to that proper planning of having the proper documentation in place, having the resources that you need to give you access to those places. And so that's really the in the world has changed a lot. You know, as we see this silver tsunami of people aging, few have prepared, they've kind of assumed that the system will take care of them.

00:06:06:17 - 00:06:23:16

And we're in a world where our system is not going to be able to serve the amount of seniors that are entering the system in the way we always have. So it's really thinking about, what are you going to do about that? What are those innovative options that are out there and what we see in our program? It is an innovative option.

00:06:23:17 - 00:06:39:22

We're going to follow you for life and life changes. So you have this plan in place that is flexible enough to move how you want to move. Yes, you. Maybe you're independent now with living in a home with your husband, but that changes what happens when one spouse dies and then you don't want to be there anymore. Then where do you want to be?

00:06:40:00 - 00:06:59:01

So it's really all about knowing yourself, knowing where you want to be and and knowing what those options are, but also having one of the main things we do is having someone to navigate the system that understands how things work, then understand, you know, this is an option. That's not an option. How to how to manage that care.

00:06:59:01 - 00:07:18:18

So a large part of what we do is also the financial resource, but also planning and helping people navigate this really complicated system. And when that crisis happens, we already have a plan in place to often times family are in a crisis situation where mom's had an event and now they're trying to navigate a system at a very challenging time.

00:07:18:18 - 00:07:37:14

And I think our members know that you need to make a plan for the plan. So you want to stay at home and that's what you want to do. But just saying I want to stay at home is not enough. You're going to need to have a plan for if someone does get sick or like we were talking about a spouse, because spouses have very distinct roles.

00:07:37:14 - 00:07:55:02

And if that spouse is no longer there, who's going to help navigate the needs of the other spouse and who's going to know what that spouse wants or who what they want as a couple, and especially those that don't have children, who's going to speak for you when you can't speak? Who if you don't have children to rely on you?

00:07:55:02 - 00:08:13:01

Or maybe your children live across the country, they're not there. They're not going to be able to be at the hospital. So we really serve as that advocate to say we will be that person. We've talked to your wishes and we can navigate you through this. So I think whether you have children or some people are estranged and many people don't want to burden their children.

00:08:13:01 - 00:08:28:12

Their children have children of their own and they're busy. And so it really, gives a person that has the plan peace of mind, but it also is a peace of mind for their children to know. They don't need to worry about mom and dad. So with this plan with pass stones, do you have to remain in your home?

00:08:28:12 - 00:08:49:17

What happens if a situation that you do need to be having assistance or you want to move to a different location out of state? Is that opportunity available? Yes. So if you if your plan is to be at home and you need care at home, then as a member we would help you to navigate what kind of care fits your needs.

00:08:49:19 - 00:09:20:17

You're always in charge. It's your decisions. If it becomes a time when this is too much to be at home or there's a memory care need, then you have priority through, because you're with Parsons, with Phoebe, you can go into one of the Phoebe communities in Berks or Bucks or Allentown. And if you do decide to move out of state to be with a family member, just to be closer to children or siblings or whatever, that the reason is for moving out of state, then yes.

00:09:20:17 - 00:09:43:12

Then you could use your path stone membership in another area. So when you talk about a membership, what is the definition of a membership, a pesto membership when people reach out to us, we start the process of educating them, seeing what they want to do. If this seems to fit, if their home seems to be a home that you could age in place because like we're saying, not all homes are.

00:09:43:14 - 00:10:02:08

You know, you don't. You don't have living on one floor. You may not have a bathroom on a floor, so you really can't age in place in that home. So if you're looking at maybe moving to an independent living or to moving to a different location or adding on, you know, adding a bathroom, adding a bedroom, making sure that laundry could be moved if it needs to be moved.

00:10:02:08 - 00:10:20:14

And then we start the process. We look back for two years at medical records to see if they'd be eligible to be part of a membership with us, and it's like long term care insurance. So you need to be you need to be starting this when you're well. Do you find that a lot of people do want to remain in their home, or they prefer to be moving?

00:10:20:19 - 00:10:52:05

Statistically, what we know is that at least 80 to 90% of people choose to age in their home. When we look at statistics of people that are age and income qualified to move to a continuing care retirement community, in my career, I have visited over 100 here in the state of Pennsylvania. They are all beautiful, wonderful amenities. There wasn't one I wouldn't choose to live in, but even that said, only about 30% of the population that could move to a CCRC that have the resources and have the opportunities do.

00:10:52:10 - 00:11:13:11

That's still a large portion that want to remain in their home as long as possible. And our program is licensed by the Pennsylvania Department of Insurance, is a continuing care retirement community. We have had the first one here in Pennsylvania. They're regulated very well. And so what that means is they will pay a membership fee or an entrance fee and pass Jones has that.

00:11:13:11 - 00:11:29:21

So they pay a membership or an entrance fee based on their age and then an ongoing fee for the rest of their life. And so as they need care, what that provides them is the the opportunity that we pay for care, as well as whether that care be in their home, in a facility, or if they choose to move out of state.

00:11:29:21 - 00:11:49:14

We would also manage that care at a facility somewhere outside of Pennsylvania. I know one thing from my experience, there has been parents who have moved into a community and they didn't want to. So this is giving them the option. But then they also they can't be in their home. So then that is giving an option for that.

00:11:49:16 - 00:12:08:21

And you want to address what the needs are. And people do need to put a plan in place, which I don't think that is out there, that people are aware that there is different choices out there for them to get the information, to sit down and to start planning and seeing what is important to them and where it is important to them to be.

00:12:09:02 - 00:12:30:16

Do they want to be close in another state somewhere to their children? And a lot of families aren't staying in the same area. So we want to, you know, be able to be go to our loved ones closer. You know, as we age, we want to be around them or the grandkids, you know, the children move away. They're younger and then they start having children themselves.

00:12:30:18 - 00:12:49:05

And you want to be around the grandkids. So this is giving them the opportunity to have those choices that if they were to move, I think the other big piece that I know, the other big piece of this is the care coordinator. We have a care coordinator that's following you from the time you're first meeting with us. And we're there getting to know you.

00:12:49:05 - 00:13:12:03

We know what your plans are. We know what you want your plans to be. And as things are changing and you are changing, this person is they're helping you navigate that. There's just so much navigation. And if you do end up in the hospital, of course, unexpectedly or expectedly, with the surgery, that care coordinator is there to help you and what's best as you're going home.

00:13:12:03 - 00:13:36:19

Should you have home care? And how is that going to benefit you and also meeting your family, getting to know your children or your power of attorney so that when things do come up, you do have this team in place that is an advocate for you and helps you navigate this. I think the thing that we find most is people don't realize how hard it is to navigate the system that exists now.

00:13:36:19 - 00:13:55:09

And I think what we hear, and I don't mean in my role here previously, and I didn't say that in the beginning. I was in hospice and home health. And so I would meet people in a time, especially with home health, that you're okay now, I've had this episode happen. Something has happened. Now I need home health. What are my choices?

00:13:55:09 - 00:14:33:09

What what's going to be paid by insurance and what's not paid by insurance? And I think that's the big thing with our members is they have all they know, what they don't know. We're here to help navigate those situations with them, not for them so much, but with them and with the people that they have as power of attorneys or their children or whoever is is they've designated that we work along with them, and they have to realize that they need to have an advocate from their side as well and advocate for them, and then working with other people out there and getting the information of who to contact and know that they have choices

00:14:33:09 - 00:14:53:09

out there. That's the big thing. I think saying people have choices and people want choice, but to have choice, you need to make a plan and have an idea of what you want it to look like. And not just. I think we've all been at events where people say, this is not for me, okay, this is not for you, but what might be for you?

00:14:53:09 - 00:15:13:22

What would you like it to look like? And this is giving you that option. Well, then we also have, we have to accept reality. And so we do have difficult conversations with people that what is your plan going to be. Because we know them for life. We know them when they're well and when they decline, we will have difficult conversations to say, you have some serious issues.

00:15:13:22 - 00:15:33:20

This home is inappropriate. We need to think about the next steps. I'll give you an example. We had a member, significantly older than his wife, but his wife had some really substantial dementia. He had an event that required him to be hospitalized, and she couldn't be left alone. So we said, if this happens again, your environment is not set up.

00:15:33:20 - 00:15:50:05

We do need to think about where you should move. You should do it now. So it's proactive and it's better for her. So those are difficult conversations. Family is sometimes not comfortable having. We have difficult conversations at end of life. What do you want to do? If I asked anybody I can send you to a skilled nursing facility.

00:15:50:05 - 00:16:07:02

We could probably extend your life for six months to a year. That what you want. And they're like, no, I don't want that. And then that brings up for them to know they need to say this and have this documentation of what they want. They need to have a plan in place and directions in writing. So how do I how do I address it?

00:16:07:02 - 00:16:29:23

Just like I did? And do you need to have conversations about what you want things to look like? And our role is also we are always an advocate for that. Member. You need to tell us what you want, but we have. But those are real limitations have to be in writing. That's important for them to know. You can have these conversations, but it has to be documented, you know, make your plan right.

00:16:29:23 - 00:16:48:12

If you have a plan, document it. You need to have your client advance directive. You need to have your powers of attorneys in lines. We need to have conversations with our children. I know I have grown children and I have told them exactly what I want and that, you know, I'm pretty sure they'll follow it because they know I will come back to want them.

00:16:48:14 - 00:17:05:07

But people, this is really difficult. We see it many times. It's really hard for us as humans to accept that we're aging. It's really difficult for grown children to accept that mom and dad are aging, and so they don't want to talk about these things. They don't want to talk about their seeing mom decline, but they don't know.

00:17:05:07 - 00:17:24:14

And especially now, this time of year, we do get calls from our members children's, and that's what we want. They'll say, well, you know, I'm seeing some issues in with my mother. I'm like, well, thank you. We'll look into this further. What are the next steps? And I think it's a it's talking about this. We laugh many times in this industry and say most people are on the river of denial.

00:17:24:14 - 00:17:44:19

Nothing's ever going to happen to me. Statistically, we know that 70 to 75% of people are going to need some level of care before they get out of this world, but it's the complete inverse. Only 30% think they will, only 30% think anything's going to happen to them, and that they have any kind of plan. So we know we have a lot of work to do education wise.

00:17:45:00 - 00:18:08:09

And hopefully by educating and having things like this to educate people that you're doing, people can realize, face it, head on, make a plan. Your outcomes are going to be so much better. Instead of denying the fact you know that something may not happen or hoping that it doesn't happen, I think the other thing is, there's a lot of peace of mind in making a plan, because it frees you up to do the things you really want to do.

00:18:08:09 - 00:18:32:00

Because you have thought about this. You have steps in place. You have people who are going to advocate for you, so you're able to go out. That's one of the things meeting the members. So the majority of them are very well. They travel, they're educated, they have, they're busy, very busy. So I think that it's that peace of mind that we give you because, you know, we're going to be there.

00:18:32:00 - 00:19:00:16

And we've had those hard discussions and we have an idea what you want. And it continues. It's not a one time. It's like anything it's ever changing. And that relationship is there. The one thing that sticks in my mind is I find a lot of the children are not ready and they're in denial. So how do you get past that point of denial from the children to realize, and the children need to be part of their parents making the plan so they're aware of that?

00:19:00:19 - 00:19:22:10

Knowing that we're in place gives the children a peace of mind because they know that we're going to be there. They know that we will understand the system that they're in at that time, whether it's the hospital system or a community or in the case of a nursing home facility. So I think that gives the children a peace of mind and also that relationship.

00:19:22:10 - 00:19:39:02

We've had that relationship. It's been ongoing. So there is that trust. And these are strong, independent people that become our members. So it's their decision. They're doing this for their children. A lot of times the children will say, we didn't know what you needed until you were there, and now we don't know what we would have done without you.

00:19:39:02 - 00:19:57:00

So it is really what we say. It is a gift. You can give your children this gift of having a plan in place. Many of our members have looked to us because they did have to take care of their mother, and they realized the stress that that did. So what they tell their children is, you may not understand it, but understand I'm giving you this gift.

00:19:57:00 - 00:20:18:12

And when they do need that care and were involved, they're like, wow, I don't know how we would have done this without you. So I think it's that these are independent, strong, intelligent members that want to not put this burden on their children. And so they will make that decision because you don't know what you don't know. And I think that's huge in this understanding that there are professionals in fields.

00:20:18:12 - 00:20:42:05

We're professionals and what we do. And you think you can navigate a system no matter what you do. And we have some of our members are children, are doctors. And like, my son can't do this, nor do I want him to do this for me. That's why they're joining our program. It lets the children be just that family members and children, which is important and not yet caregivers, because you're coming from a different perspective, then, your mindset is different.

00:20:42:05 - 00:21:06:10

And you want the my personal experience with my father, he had congestive heart failure. He got a prognosis, he knew he was dying and he was on hospice. So that gave us the opportunity to enjoy his life and build those memories instead of being overwhelmed. Now, currently, I'm in a different situation. My mother has Alzheimer's and none of the decisions were made for her.

00:21:06:12 - 00:21:37:02

So personally, it's hard to make those decisions and to see what she's going through. So by having a plan, you are giving the opportunity for memories to be built, which is important. Well and is we have having made end of life decisions for both of my parents, I was very fortunate and they told me what they wanted. And so while it is difficult to know that this is what they want, it is a tremendous, peace of mind and a relief instead of going through the situation you're going through because we didn't have that discussion.

00:21:37:06 - 00:21:58:02

While it might be difficult having that discussion, I think is something that you can live with. And it's a relief to know, like, okay, it was difficult, but this is what they wanted. And I'm good with this decision. And that brings to my mind when you say these discussions haven't been done in the past, people have not sat down with their children and had these discussions.

00:21:58:02 - 00:22:22:10

And it is important. And that's why you are to talk early, plan early, know and discuss what and share with others, whether it's children or peers or friends or another relative. But share with someone what you're want for you, what your intentions are and the choices that you want so they're aware of it and not somebody else making the decisions for you.

00:22:22:14 - 00:22:43:15

And a lot of this and I tell people it's an insurance. It's like in long term care insurance, any kind of insurance is about managing risk, right. Do you understand? You have the risk. And then how comfortable are you are with that risk. And some people, the 30% that we know, might not have anything, they got lucky, but the 70% something is going to happen.

00:22:43:15 - 00:22:59:06

And what how are you going to manage it when and when that occurs? And so part of this is that idea of the odds are something will happen. And what does that look like and how are you going to manage it. You know we can't convince people that something will happen. You have to come to terms with that.

00:22:59:06 - 00:23:18:02

But what we know is it. Well, so it's the same thing. I'm always saying. I think there's a point zero 1%, a very small percentage of homes will actually burn down, but everybody has homeowner insurance. For the most part, your odds are 70% something's going to happen to your house. And we have a system where Medicaid and Medicaid are not going to pay for that.

00:23:18:02 - 00:23:39:12

People don't understand how the system works. And it's hard when you're at that event and now you're finding out, oh, I didn't know that. Okay. The important thing is you're going to need care as it is sometime. You need to start planning. Start planning while you're well. You know, you want to start planning while you're well and you can make your own decisions.

00:23:39:12 - 00:23:57:21

You have choices. If you've planned well, you're going to have choices with being proactive, not reactive. And we're telling people to start planning. So you want to start planning. When you're young, you want to put a plan in place. So you have a plan in place and your wishes will be followed through. That's what's important. People don't understand.

00:23:57:23 - 00:24:16:04

You're not the only one out there. There are many people out there and they don't know where to go. Where do we start? Yes, it's. It's really all about planning, being educated. Know what your options are? Understanding how the system works and understanding what you want. So what I'm passionate about is maybe past June's is not what you want to do.

00:24:16:05 - 00:24:38:04

Maybe you do want to go to a community, find out what you want, understand what your options are based on your financial resources. Don't be left to be a victim of the system. And what we really, truly hope we give people is peace of mind. A quality of life. Knowing that I have professionals and access to a quality system, we have one member say, I hope I never need your services.

00:24:38:04 - 00:24:59:12

I think that's what most people would like, but unfortunately we don't know what the future can hold. So planning is key. You plan on what to do with your career. You plan on what to do with your home. You plan with your children. You make plans with your children for college. You've helped so many along the way, and now it's time to take time for yourself and say, what do I want this to look like?

00:24:59:14 - 00:25:17:20

And you know, how do I how do I want these years to be? And what peace of mind do I want to give? And who do I want out there? That's helping me navigate? And what do I need to navigate? People that have long term care insurance, they have a plan to cover the financial piece of this, but what they don't have is a navigator.

00:25:17:20 - 00:25:35:06

They don't have someone that will help with that care coordination, right? Give them access to a CB community. So we do have a program that is just care coordination. Only for people that have long term care insurance. Because they have done the planning, they thought ahead. They have a financial plan. We fill in the pieces that long term care insurance doesn't.

00:25:35:06 - 00:25:54:04

So we have probably 30% of our members have long term care insurance. I was an insurance agent and I worked in the business office. They don't understand. They got that policy 20 years ago. You don't understand what it's covering. There's a waiting period. And so why? We have the care coordination. Having a review of that is something we do for free.

00:25:54:06 - 00:26:13:16

And some we find that then you realize we could use Pathstones to supplement that. So we have a lot of different options depending on where you are. If that long term care insurance policy is getting to a point that it's unaffordable, please talk to us and we're happy to work through and and give you some answers that that will be helpful to you.

00:26:13:22 - 00:26:35:22

It's very personalized to what you you want, what your needs are, what plans you've already made, and even even the review of your home. Sometimes it's just, you know, you we see our homes differently than you know. The care coordinator will see them. We are not salespeople. We are part of CB. Our mission is truly to serve people in any way that we can.

00:26:35:22 - 00:26:54:10

So if we are not a fit for us, we're going to help you find the next thing, but also know that it is our mission to serve seniors. Phoebe has been serving seniors for over hundred and 20 years. We are an extension of that mission and truly that is our passion. That's what we believe in. So please don't be intimidated that we're going to try to sell you something you don't need.

00:26:54:14 - 00:27:13:03

We don't do that. Our point really is to help you navigate this and find the answer that's right for you, whether it be Pathstones or guide you on the next path of something that may work for you, and what is going to make you happy. Yes, because you want to be here. But we have to know that changes too, because like, right now, being happy is being in your home.

00:27:13:08 - 00:27:31:05

But at some point it might not. That might not be what makes you happy. And it's a relationship. In my seven years, no one has ever met me one time and said, I'm signing up. It's a it's about a year, a year or two process of us working with them, educating a little bit. They come back, got some more questions.

00:27:31:05 - 00:27:50:15

Think about it. So it is by a no means a decision that's made overnight. It's a long term relationship that we're working with them when they make that decision. I thank Kama and Lisa, for joining us today on Caring Table Podcast, I appreciate it. We have a lot of information to share with you. Do not hesitate to reach out to us and have any questions.

00:27:50:15 - 00:28:13:11

Thanks, Dianne. Thanks always. Good bless you. If anyone listening has any questions or input, please reach out to us. Listen to our podcast Caring Table on YouTube and all other major podcast platforms. Thank you for listening. Talk to you next time.